Hi ! My name is Jamie! I'm a violet chinchilla and I was born at Luv 'N
Chins. Have you ever had a friend that didn't turn out to be much of a
friend after all? Well, that's what happened to Momma Jo ... and I am
right in the middle of it.
See, there's this lady by the name of Abigail Sutton Wilson, I'm living with
her right now and that's a big part of the problem. Last November,
Momma Jo gave me to Ms Abby, so I could have a cage mate to play with
that would be a girl. Her name was B. All of Momma Jo's cages were full.
The only stipulations for her getting me were that she would take good
care of me and NOT put me in breeding. That's all Momma Jo ask of her.
The reason was that I'd had 2 still births and she did not want me to go
through that again. What we did not know at the time, was that I was
pregnant again. Momma Jo told Ms Abby I might be, but she hoped not,
that if I was and if my kit lived, she wanted it. Well, I was and I had Ashe.
Ms Abby put him up on her site for sale for $200. Momma Jo found out
and was upset. Ms Abby said Momma Jo could have him for $100 so he
could come back and live with his daddy.
Again, Ms Abby promised Momma Jo I would not have to go into breeding,
but she did it anyway. Momma Jo saw it on her web site at Virginia Chins
that she had put me with another male and ask that I come back home.
My son, Ashe, died. Something was wrong with him, he died in less than
a week after he left me ... bad heart, Momma Jo thinks.
Anyway, things went down hill from there.
I got pregnant again ... Miss Abby made sure of that ... she put me with a
male twice after promising she would not. I had been pregnant or
nursing for over a solid year now, counting 2 still birth litters, one live
birth, Ashe, and nursing him. Momma Jo told Ms Abby I needed rest, but
Miss Abby wanted more kits, so she did not honor her promise to Momma
Jo. She put me in breeding twice, in April and again in May, to make
sure I was going to have more kits.
You can see the e-mails below and judge for yourself ... Momma Jo's
e-mails are in blue and Ms Abby's in green ...
These are actual e-mails, nothing has been added to any of them.
Chins. Have you ever had a friend that didn't turn out to be much of a
friend after all? Well, that's what happened to Momma Jo ... and I am
right in the middle of it.
See, there's this lady by the name of Abigail Sutton Wilson, I'm living with
her right now and that's a big part of the problem. Last November,
Momma Jo gave me to Ms Abby, so I could have a cage mate to play with
that would be a girl. Her name was B. All of Momma Jo's cages were full.
The only stipulations for her getting me were that she would take good
care of me and NOT put me in breeding. That's all Momma Jo ask of her.
The reason was that I'd had 2 still births and she did not want me to go
through that again. What we did not know at the time, was that I was
pregnant again. Momma Jo told Ms Abby I might be, but she hoped not,
that if I was and if my kit lived, she wanted it. Well, I was and I had Ashe.
Ms Abby put him up on her site for sale for $200. Momma Jo found out
and was upset. Ms Abby said Momma Jo could have him for $100 so he
could come back and live with his daddy.
Again, Ms Abby promised Momma Jo I would not have to go into breeding,
but she did it anyway. Momma Jo saw it on her web site at Virginia Chins
that she had put me with another male and ask that I come back home.
My son, Ashe, died. Something was wrong with him, he died in less than
a week after he left me ... bad heart, Momma Jo thinks.
Anyway, things went down hill from there.
I got pregnant again ... Miss Abby made sure of that ... she put me with a
male twice after promising she would not. I had been pregnant or
nursing for over a solid year now, counting 2 still birth litters, one live
birth, Ashe, and nursing him. Momma Jo told Ms Abby I needed rest, but
Miss Abby wanted more kits, so she did not honor her promise to Momma
Jo. She put me in breeding twice, in April and again in May, to make
sure I was going to have more kits.
You can see the e-mails below and judge for yourself ... Momma Jo's
e-mails are in blue and Ms Abby's in green ...
These are actual e-mails, nothing has been added to any of them.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Joann McCraw
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: Hey! Check out my new babies...
http://www.virginia.chinchillas.org
I just bought two new chins from Dave Woods at Whitewoods, a sapphire
male and a black velvet sc female. They are really beautiful! Hope all is
well for you all!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Hey! Check out my new babies...
JoAnn,
Friday works fine for me. We can meet at the Cracker Barrel if you want.
The address is 152 Rowe Road, right? I can bring Jamie, Isaac and
Rebekkah along too. Cotton Jr. was the pink white we talked about and I
did want to see both violets if it's not too much trouble. Jamie is pretty
cranky lately though, so I dont know how she will react to them.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Hi Abby,
My Violets usually go for $350 & my Pink Whites for $200, that would be
$550, but if you want both of them it would be $400 total for you.
How much do you want for the ebony/vc? (Ashe, born to Jamie)
Jo Ann
Jo Ann,
I do like the pink white very much, and I love both of the violets, but am
not sure yet which one to pick. If I could meet them both that would be
great. I am really not sure what ebonies usually go for...I have looked
around at other breeders and they seem to be in the $100-$150 range.
That's about what I was planning on selling him for.
Does that seem fair to you?
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc
So Momma Jo had to pay Miss Abby $100 to buy my son, so he could live
with his daddy instead of the $200 Ms Abby had him on her site for. AND
she gave Miss Abby a $150 discount on the chins she bought.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
I am so sorry to hear about Ashe! It is such a sad thing to lose a chin. I
will be thinking of you. Please let me know if you need anything.
I had paired Jamie with Sammie, the other violet I got from you (Joker).
However, I have had to separate them because Jamie keeps beating him
up. She chewed all the fur off his butt, and then wouldn't let him eat, so
he was losing weight. As soon as I separated them he gained all the
weight back, and was eating like a horse! I don't know what I am going
to do. I am picking up an ebony violet girl who is closer to his size in
July, so I expect that to be a good pairing. Maybe if Jamie is paired with
a large standard vc male that will work, but she is so much bigger than
Sammie I guess it's just not a good match. Given the situation with Ashe
I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to just not breed her and
pair her with another non-breeding female. Let me know
what you think. Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Hi Abby,
I think we talked about that, didn't we? I ask you NOT to put her into
breeding ... or if you did ... to wait 6 months to a year and give her time to
get over the two single litters she lost and the one she delivered,
because the second and third were breed-backs. I know we agreed after
Ashe was born, that it might have been just the combination of the two
together, but, if I remember correctly ... I said again that, if it were me, I
would not put her back into breeding for at least 6 months to a year or
longer. Had I thought she would be ok to continue to breed, I would not
have given her to you and ask you not to breed her.
How old was the male that you put with her? At the time you put them
together?
Let me know what happens.
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
We had talked originally about not breeding her, but then after she did so
well with Ashe I had said I was considering it, after a break. She has
gained all of her weight back and is in great physical condition. The
male I tried to pair her with is a young, inexperienced breeder though, so
maybe that's the problem. I understand that you would not have given
her to me though if you had known she was ok to breed, so if you would
like to have her back I totally understand. Just let me know. Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Help!!! I have a baby invasion! :)
Hi Abby,
When is Jamie's due date? It is very important that we keep up with this
kit/kits. Please let me know as soon as it/they are born. I will greatly
appreciate it if you will keep her out of breeding for at least a year ... she
has been pregnant more than not, so and it will take her down if it
continues.
Check below for the answers to a few of the questions. (It's easier for me
to answer them in a different color print, to make sure I don't miss
anything.)
Do you have each of the girls in their own cages and away from the
males?
Please keep me posted.
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Joann McCraw" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Help!!! I have a baby invasion! :)
Jo Ann,
Hi! How are you? I hope you are doing well.
Things have gotten a bit nuts here. My chinnies decided to all breed at
the same time. I have three pregnant females, including Jamie, who
apparently bred with my violet male during the three days they were
caged together (she is doing beautifully, though). Jamie is weighing over
800 grams right now, and seems to be in the peak of health.
The other two are Pepper (your standard gray) and Rebekkah (black
velvet sapphire carrier). My problem is since I don't know the exact
breeding date I am not sure when to expect delivery. I have read about
the basic signs of pregnancy (weight gain, nipples becoming longer,
change in sleeping and/or eating habits), but is there any way to tell how
far along a female is if you don't know when she bred?
Not the exact due date. You can get a better idea the closer they get. If
you will put your females in your lap and give them a treat to help keep
them distracted, (it may take up to 20 minutes) you should be able to feel
the kits move if they are going to have one or two about 2 weeks before
delivery. Put one hand in your lap, palms up. Place them on the palm of
your hand ... finger tips near their tail. Just let the weight of the chin
create the pressure on the tummy ... do not push or poke around ... you
could kill the kit/kits. Unless the kits have already been moving before
this, the first time you feel them move, it should be about 2 weeks till
delivery. If they are going to have 3 or more ... it could be about 3 weeks
before the delivery.
I have read that the nipples will be very hard to find in the first 90 days.
Is that true?
Only for new ... first-time moms. If this is not their first litter, you really
can't count on that.
If that's the case then all three of my girls are due in the next few weeks.
Most females will increase their water intake by 50 to 100% the last 24
hours before they deliver ... watch your water levels in the bottles.
Jamie has become quite moody and defensive over the last two days,
which is just how she was prior to having Ashe. I am hoping she will
have a girl so I can leave them caged together.
Please do not sell her kits to anyone until they are at least 6 months old
or older.
I have a violet wrap girl coming here on Aug 5 that I am going to pair with
Sammie (violet), so I am going to take Jamie out of breeding for about a
year, which will be long enough to give her a good break and to make
sure her kit is ok.
Thanks. She was always one of my favorite girls. I don't want anything
to happen to her. I GAVE her to you not to put her in breeding, then
bought Ashe from you and he died. I just do not want to see her go
through anything unnecessarily.
I am very excited, but very nervous for my girls too. For two of them this
is a first litter, and Jamie was kind of a surprise. She and Sammie sure
didn't waste any time. Anyway, I am planning to post pics of the kits on
my website once they are a few days old.
I will let you know how everything goes! Thanks for your help! Say hi to
Bill for me!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
REPEAT:----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
We had talked originally about not breeding her, but then after she did so
well with Ashe I had said I was considering it, after a break.
She has gained all of her weight back and is in great physical condition.
The male I tried to pair her with is a young, inexperienced breeder
though, so maybe that's the problem. I understand that you would not
have given her to me though if you had known she was ok to breed, so if
you would like to have her back I totally understand. Just let me know.
Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abby Sutton
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:25 PM
Subject: Jamie
Abby,
When I got Ashe, the last weekend in March. I asked you again to give
Jamie at least 6 months to a year before putting her back into breeding
... you promised me you would wait. She got pregnant around April 19th
with the kit she just delivered ... the first in-season after Ashe was
weaned ... less than a month after I got Ashe. 4/20 to 8/09 is 111 days
You offered to give her back to me May 31st ... had I known what you had
done, I would have said yes at that time. Now, I will take you up on that.
I want Jamie back as soon as the kit is weaned.
I GAVE Jamie to you and she was already pregnant with Ashe. You made
me pay to get my own kit back. Then you put her into breeding after I
told you it would be dangerous for her to be put back into breeding that
quickly. She had two still births back to back then delivered a breed
back. She was pregnant for a solid year, then you put her back into
breeding as soon as Ashe was weaned. I think it best she comes home to
me.
Sincerely,
Jo Ann
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Abby,
Please check below. I have answered questions and made comments in
a different color.
Sincerely,
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
I do remember the conversation, but I also remember telling you then and
on several occasions not to put her into breeding for at least 6 months to
a year, that she needed the time to get back to normal, inside as well as
out.
If I wasn't clear I am sorry.
No you were not clear at all.
I had come away from that conversation believing I had your approval.
Maybe it was naive of me to think she could recuperate so quickly, but
that is what I thought.
I may be wrong, but, have trouble believing you were that naive,
especially after I was so strong about the fact that it would have to be 6
months to a year and explaining to you why.
Also, we did have a conversation in late April about her being with
Sammie. I had tried them together in an intro (after she had been cleared
by Dr. Carr at Stahl Exotics) and Sammie began to lose weight and fur, so
I separated them. Then after he had recovered I tried them together
again, and she again beat up on him. That's when I emailed you. The
first time we talked about this was over the phone, which is maybe why
you don't remember, but I did mention it to you. Again, maybe I didn't
communicate adequately and so you weren't clear on what I was saying.
If that is the case, again I am sorry.
If that is the case, I sure do not remember it and I know, under the
circumstances, I would have told you again not to put her into breeding,
she needed the re-coop time to get over what she had been through. Yet,
you put them back together a second time. One month would have not
been enough time for her to get back to normal ... why would I have
changed my mind on what I had been telling your for 2 months?
But I NEVER lied to you or tried to mislead you. After they were together
in May and you expressed concern about it I did separate them and they
had been together for about three days.
Think about what you just stated ... why would I tell you in March and
May not to put her in breeding and tell you in April it was OK? That does
not make any sense.
I guess I never really even thought about the math, but now that I look at
the due date calendar, you are right and she would have had to conceive
during the first intro period; not something I expected.
And that's why you put them back together a second time, so she could
get pregnant.
Since I often don't know when the chins mate I don't pay much attention
to the calendar because I really would have no idea when they would be
due anyway. I rely on the physical signs they give. If this is a mistake
then I will try to do better.
With the small number of chins you have, you should write down every
time you put a male and female in the same cage and/or if you even let
them play together. This tells you who the daddy is and very often gives
you a good idea when they are due.
I will be keeping Jamie out of breeding for a year, if for no other reason
than to make sure her current kit is healthy.
By this, are you saying you refuse to give her back to me?
I take the ethics of breeding very seriously and feel a responsibility to be
sure I am breeding genetically sound chins. I don't want to unknowingly
perpetuate undesirable genetic or physical traits.
Don't you think putting her into breeding again, after what she had
already been through (pregnancy and developing kits for over a solid
year ... 3 litters in a row) was the wrong thing to do? Her reserve of
calcium was way down from the pregnancies and nursing Ashe.
Wouldn't she need enough calcium to develop this kit and nurse it? Why
she hasn't gone hypocalcemia on you I do not know.
For the record, I did start Rebekkah's antibiotics immediately. I was
seeking some reasurance from more experienced breeders that this was
not going to be harmful, since I know antibiotics can upset a chin's
system, and I wanted to make sure I was doing everything I could to help
her.
Some antibiotics can be to strong for an unborn kit, or even for a nursing
kit ... but at this point, the mother's health should be the most important
thing. She has one dead kit in her, what if she does deliver this other
one, but can't nurse it because she has so much poison in her system,
what then? What if she dies?
I have recently switched to a vet closer to home, but have not been with
her long enough to have developed the same kind of blind trust I had with
Dr. Carr. I have found that some of the tips experienced breeders have
given me are things that this vet (and even Dr. Carr at Stahl's office) has
not been aware of, like waiting to give dust baths for 10 days after
delivery. In the wild, as far as I and the vet know, new mothers would not
avoid bathing for time periods, but would be participating in those normal
activities. So she knew of no reason why this would be harmful.
Since you have brought up "in the wild" ... In the wild they only had one
litter of kits a year. Do they know that?
In the wild they did not get containers of powdery volcanic ash to bathe
in, either ... it was dirt and very little of it. No one knows what
chinchillas did the first 10 days after birth ... I can not see why a vet
would even want to take the chance of a dust bath before a wound is
healed ... having a kit is like having an open wound.
However, since other breeders have had a problem with it I am going to
observe this waiting period so as not to take any unnecessary risks.
As for the advice you gave me on Rebekkah, I do respect your opinion
and value your advice, but once I consulted with my vet (firts thing the
following morning) and she assured me that things were ok and I was
being overly nervous, I felt comfortable with keeping an eye on Rebekkah
and letting nature take its course. I am not one to assume that I know
better than millions of years of evolutionary development.
I've never said that I know better than millions of years of evolutionary
development either ... but, chinchillas are exotic animals ... we have
taken them out of their natural healthy habitat. The advice I gave you
was from my own experience and the experience of breeders that have
been breeding for over 10 to 50 years.
I believe that there are good reasons for most things that occur naturally
and I should not interfere with that as much as possible. That is not to
say at all that I would allow a chin, or any animal, to suffer if it were ill or
in pain. Just that before doing invasive medical procedures I am going to
give the animal the chance to resolve things naturally since that would
be less traumatic and probably healthier.
A chinchilla mom is pregnant, goes into labor, even passes some blood
and you and the licensed exotic pet vet do not think that is a natural sign
of a mother trying to deliver her kits, but can't and is in trouble??? Being
this way for 10 days is natural and not traumatic? Trying to give birth,
the kit dieing inside of her and still having a possible live kit yet to be
delivered is less traumatic and healthier than having help with the
delivery from a vet? I am not a vet, yet I knew she needed an ultrasound
and/or at least an x-ray to know what was going on.
I am sorry if you disagree with my approach and I am sorry if we have had
misunderstandings, but I am not ok with being accused of lieing to you.
When you insist they were together only the ONE time and ONLY FOR 3
DAYS THAT ONE TIME and then have to admit otherwise when I call you
on it ... was that telling me the truth?
I have never intentionally misled you, nor do I do this with other people. I
pride myself on being honest and trustworthy. And if you are that worried
you are free to come visit my house to see how conscientious I am with
my chins. I have nothing to hide, I am not neglecting or mistreating my
animals in any way. Jamie is in great health. She looks beautiful and
behaves like a vibrant healthy happy chin. She eats well and plays
regularly. I have done my best to care for her to the utmost of my ability.
I am sorry if my best is not satisfactory to you, but that is all I can do.
If that is your best, then by my standards, it is not satisfactory to me.
I am inexperienced, and maybe I have made some mistakes, but they
have been HONEST mistakes and I do not appreciate the accusatory tone
you have taken with me. If you were upset with me I would have been
happy to hear you out without you jumping down my throat. If you were
anyone else I would not even have bothered to respond to this, as I don't
feel obligated to explain the decisions that I make with my animals.
With any animal you have purchased you make your own decisions ... but,
when you are given an animal, with the express provision that you will
not breed it ... and you do anyway, then it is my right be able to say
something.
As far as your decisions about Rebekkah. You ask for my advice, I gave
it, you chose to ignore it, now you have at least one dead kit on your
hands and possibly more. That is your problem, not mine. All I said was
that I wanted to make sure Jamie would never be put in the same
position.
However, I value my relationship with you, both as an experienced
breeder and as a friend, and would like very much to get this resolved. I
don't want you to have hard feelings or feel betrayed by me, as I have
never intentionally done anything to make you feel that way. If I have
made "rookie mistakes" I can accept responsibility for that and try to
learn for the future.
Yes, you have made "rookie mistakes", those I can understand ... and
even accept.
But, I do not feel putting Jamie in a breeding situation two different times
was a rookie mistake.
So you know, I have been thinking about what you said about having to
buy Ashe and I think you are right. I didn't really think about it at the
time, but he was bred by you with your chins and I shouldn't have asked
money for him.
You put Ashe up for sale on your site for $200 and when I saw it and
wanted him you lost out on the $200 sale, but wanted $100 from me ...
that shows me you realized it was my chin. Then, and I may be wrong,
but in my mind you put Jamie right back into a breeding situation, twice
... to make up the difference. To me, that seems like money is more
important to you than my Jamie's health.
When we spoke you had asked how much I wanted and I was caught off
guard. I am sorry for that, I should have been more thoughtful about it,
and I would be happy to refund your money, as it shouldn't have been
paid in the first place.
Let's see what is wrong with this offer at this time ... you adopt
chinchillas with me, each with the guarantee I will replace or refund any
chin that might have an inborn/hereditary problem within the first year. I
pay you the $100 you ask for Ash, then I have Ashe here less than a week
and he dies. Did you offer to refund the money at that time? No. It is
not the $100 that bothered me, it was the idea of the whole thing. If you
had purchased her, that would be different. If you had not promised not
to breed her, that would be different. But that was not the case.
Also, my offer still stands for your pick of my first violet wrap kit, as I
know that is one of the few colors you don't have yet, and I would like for
you to have one to show my appreciation for your help.
Thank-you, but I'd rather just have my Jamie back.
I hope this letter helps clear some things up and we can not be angry
with each other or have hard feelings.
When I loose trust, it takes a while to get it back ... I need some time to
think things out.
Sincerely,
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Jo Ann,
Are you angry with me? I am sorry if I did something to make you angry.
Jamie seemed veyr healthy and was cleared by a vet for breeding, so I
put her in with a violet. Then after I talked to you about it (about three
days later) I removed her from the cage and placed her by herself. She
had apparently already bred by that point. However, she is very healthy
(I just had her at the vet yesterday and she given a clean bill) and her kit
has also been given a clean bill of health. Furthermore, I already told you
I would be keeping her out of breeding for at least a year now to make
sure her kit is healthy. I am sorry if you felt buying Ashe was unfair. I did
not realize that at the time. When I spoke to you originally about him I
had meant to give him to you, but you said something about how much I
would want for him. So I assumed you expected him to be sold. If I made
the wrong assumption I am sorry. However, I have also told you that
because of that I have already decided to set aside my first violet wrap
kit for you at no cost. If you are still upset with me and feel what I am
doing is a problem I will hold to my word and return Jamie to you.
However, I do resent the implication that I have not taken good care of
her as she is every bit as healthy as she was when she came here. I do
my best to take excellent care of all of my chins and have done
extensive research of my own to learn how to care for pregnant chins,
nursing chins, growing chins, and all manner of illnesses. In addition, I
do seek the advice of a licensed exotic pet specialist in any situation I
am not 100% sure about. I am sorry if you don't feel I have done the right
things, or that I have done you wrong in some way, as that has never
been my intention.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Abby,
You promised me to keep her out of breeding for 6 months to a year.
Then you broke your promise. I am not use to being lied to or having
promises broken. If you had come to me before you put her in breeding
and said you thought she was OK to be in breeding and/or a vet had said
she was OK for breeding, I would have still disagreed and ask you not to
and if you intended to put her in breeding I would want her back. But you
didn't ... I had to find it out on the web site. I told you she had two still
born litters back to back and then a breed-back ... that is almost a solid
year of being pregnant ... nurse a kit for 6 weeks ... then put her back
into breeding? Any vet that knew all the information would not say she
was ok to be put into breeding. That's like having a puppy mill but only
with chinchillas. Would you like to stay pregnant for 3 solid years and
give birth 4 times during that 3 years? In comparison to what you did
intentionally putting her back into breeding that is what you did to her.
At least the 2nd and 3rd pregnancy were accidents when she was with
me, I didn't know she was pregnant. All I can say is the good Lord was
looking out for Jamie because by all rights most chins would not survive
that.
Jamie got pregnant about April 19th or 20th ... I did not talk to you about
seeing on your web site that you had put her in breeding until May 25th
and you say you moved her after you talked to me? That's not 3 days,
Abby.
You say you seek advice from a licensed vet when you are not 100%
sure? Yet, a licensed vet gave you antibiotics for the black velvet and
instead of starting them immediately, you ask on an open forum for
advice from people that are not vets as to should you give it to her or not?
You called me on the phone August 7th wanting to know what to do about
the black velvet, I told you, you ignored the advice and now she has lost
at least one kit, maybe more. I don't want to take the chance you would
put Jamie through that, ever.
You say you told me you intend on keeping her out of breeding for a year
now? Isn't that what you promised me before? Wouldn't you, if you were
in my place, feel angry, betrayed, and/or lied to?
When you trust someone enough to give them one of your favorite chins,
then you find out your trust in their word can not be kept, it just kinda
does something bad to your insides. Maybe trust and your word does not
mean that much to you, but it does to me.
Jo Ann
Hi Abby,
I see you have Jamie's son "on hold"/spoken for ... is he already sold?
The sapphire that belongs to Rebekkah, how much would she be?
Jo Ann
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
Jamie's kit is already spoken for, assuming he gets to one year old
without incident. The sapphire girl is $250. I have attached two pics of
Jamie for you. As you can see, except for the fur on her nose, which she
keeps messing up by shoving her nose through the bars of her cage, she
is very well. She has received a clean bill of health from the vet and
is/has been getting calcium supplements and vitamin C every day. She
is very happy and active and is eating VERY well. Her kit is a handful,
just like her :)
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Abby,
Thank-you for the pictures of Jamie. I appreciate them. Will her kit be
weaned by the end of September so I can pic-up Jamie?
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I have not yet decided whether I feel it is appropriate to give Jamie
back. She was given to me as a gift, and to my mind demanding her
back is tantamount to "indian giving". I am not ok with your accusations
or your demands. Jamie has been in my care for quite some time now
and has been doing very well. I am sorry if you diasagree with the
decisions I have made in the care of my animals, but I am tired of trying
to justify myself to you. I am sorry that you think
I do not have their best interests and health as a priority. However, I
have grown attached to Jamie, my family has grown attached to her. I
consider her my pet and I am not sure that it is even appropriate for you
to demand her back. If this means that you no longer want to associate
with me or you think badly of me then so be it.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Abby,
Jamie was given to you as a pet only, not to be put into breeding, that
was the only stipulation in which I gave her to you. You broke the
agreement. If she was going to be kept in breeding I would have kept
her. She was given to you in friendship, but friends don't go behind your
back and put something they care a great deal for in danger.
I think you need to reconsider and return Jamie to me.
Jo Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I am sorry you feel I went behind your back. I truly am. However, I stand
behind the decisions I made with my chins, and I am going to stand by my
decision to keep Jamie in my household. Both I and my family have
grown very attached to her, and I will not put them through the pain of
losing a pet because you disagree with a decision I made in good
conscience.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Abby,
The only two things I ask of you when I GAVE Jamie to you was that you
take good care of her and that you would not put her into breeding, yet,
you do not feel that was wrong? In other words, you do not feel you
betrayed our friendship by putting her into breeding after you had
promised me you would not?
As a breeder, you feel that it is OK to keep a female pregnant for a year,
let her nurse the third litter, then knowingly put her back into breeding
for a 4th time in less than a month after the third litter is weaned? And
that's not bad breeding practices???
Did all the times that I helped you when you started out mean nothing?
You called me friend, then you do this? I do not understand you. Is it the
money you can make off of Jamie's kits? Do you want me to buy back
what I gave you? If that's it, for Jamie's sake I will buy her back.
Does your word not mean anything to you? I don't understand, Abby.
Why are you doing this to me? More important, why did you do what you
did to Jamie?
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I have tried to explain myself to you. I am not doing anything to you
except choosing not to accede to your, in my view, inappropriate
demands. I do not feel as if I put Jamie in danger, since a licensed
exotic pet veterinarian, knowing Jamie's full history as it was told to me,
approved her for breeding. I am tired of your accusations that I only care
about the money. For the record I have lost far more in the way of money
than I have gained or will gain. I just spent more than one thousand
dollars trying to save Rebekkah and her two kits, not to mention the
sleep loss, stress, worry, and time away from work. I am sorry that you
feel I am not dedicated. I do appreciate the help and advice you have
given me, but to be frank I would rather find a friend and mentor who isn't
quite so judgemental and exacting. I made a judgement call, based on
the advice and input of a professional licensed veterinarian with
extensive experience dealing with chinchillas, as well as my own
research on others' breeding practices. I have researched the larger
ranch breeders and spoken with several breeders, like Dave Woods, to
get their input on ethical breeding practices, as well as reading all of the
recommended texts for breeders. I have done everything I can to
educate myself on the health issues and the ethical questions involved in
breeding. As I said before, I consider Jamie my pet and care for her a
great deal, as do the other people in my houehold. I do not believe it is
even appropriate for you to ask for her back, let alone demand her back
the way you have.
The fact that you are willing to call me a liar and a cheat, and accuse me
of essentially animal abuse leads me to feel that I no longer wish to have
dealings with you. I would prefer you not email me for a while. I need
time to cool off.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
I just wanna go back home to Momma Jo at Luv 'N Chins,
then I could be happy again ...
I do not want to have to have any more kits.
3 of my 4 kits have already died!
Jamie
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Joann McCraw
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: Hey! Check out my new babies...
http://www.virginia.chinchillas.org
I just bought two new chins from Dave Woods at Whitewoods, a sapphire
male and a black velvet sc female. They are really beautiful! Hope all is
well for you all!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Hey! Check out my new babies...
JoAnn,
Friday works fine for me. We can meet at the Cracker Barrel if you want.
The address is 152 Rowe Road, right? I can bring Jamie, Isaac and
Rebekkah along too. Cotton Jr. was the pink white we talked about and I
did want to see both violets if it's not too much trouble. Jamie is pretty
cranky lately though, so I dont know how she will react to them.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Hi Abby,
My Violets usually go for $350 & my Pink Whites for $200, that would be
$550, but if you want both of them it would be $400 total for you.
How much do you want for the ebony/vc? (Ashe, born to Jamie)
Jo Ann
Jo Ann,
I do like the pink white very much, and I love both of the violets, but am
not sure yet which one to pick. If I could meet them both that would be
great. I am really not sure what ebonies usually go for...I have looked
around at other breeders and they seem to be in the $100-$150 range.
That's about what I was planning on selling him for.
Does that seem fair to you?
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc
So Momma Jo had to pay Miss Abby $100 to buy my son, so he could live
with his daddy instead of the $200 Ms Abby had him on her site for. AND
she gave Miss Abby a $150 discount on the chins she bought.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
I am so sorry to hear about Ashe! It is such a sad thing to lose a chin. I
will be thinking of you. Please let me know if you need anything.
I had paired Jamie with Sammie, the other violet I got from you (Joker).
However, I have had to separate them because Jamie keeps beating him
up. She chewed all the fur off his butt, and then wouldn't let him eat, so
he was losing weight. As soon as I separated them he gained all the
weight back, and was eating like a horse! I don't know what I am going
to do. I am picking up an ebony violet girl who is closer to his size in
July, so I expect that to be a good pairing. Maybe if Jamie is paired with
a large standard vc male that will work, but she is so much bigger than
Sammie I guess it's just not a good match. Given the situation with Ashe
I am wondering if it would not be a good idea to just not breed her and
pair her with another non-breeding female. Let me know
what you think. Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Hi Abby,
I think we talked about that, didn't we? I ask you NOT to put her into
breeding ... or if you did ... to wait 6 months to a year and give her time to
get over the two single litters she lost and the one she delivered,
because the second and third were breed-backs. I know we agreed after
Ashe was born, that it might have been just the combination of the two
together, but, if I remember correctly ... I said again that, if it were me, I
would not put her back into breeding for at least 6 months to a year or
longer. Had I thought she would be ok to continue to breed, I would not
have given her to you and ask you not to breed her.
How old was the male that you put with her? At the time you put them
together?
Let me know what happens.
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
We had talked originally about not breeding her, but then after she did so
well with Ashe I had said I was considering it, after a break. She has
gained all of her weight back and is in great physical condition. The
male I tried to pair her with is a young, inexperienced breeder though, so
maybe that's the problem. I understand that you would not have given
her to me though if you had known she was ok to breed, so if you would
like to have her back I totally understand. Just let me know. Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Help!!! I have a baby invasion! :)
Hi Abby,
When is Jamie's due date? It is very important that we keep up with this
kit/kits. Please let me know as soon as it/they are born. I will greatly
appreciate it if you will keep her out of breeding for at least a year ... she
has been pregnant more than not, so and it will take her down if it
continues.
Check below for the answers to a few of the questions. (It's easier for me
to answer them in a different color print, to make sure I don't miss
anything.)
Do you have each of the girls in their own cages and away from the
males?
Please keep me posted.
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Joann McCraw" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Help!!! I have a baby invasion! :)
Jo Ann,
Hi! How are you? I hope you are doing well.
Things have gotten a bit nuts here. My chinnies decided to all breed at
the same time. I have three pregnant females, including Jamie, who
apparently bred with my violet male during the three days they were
caged together (she is doing beautifully, though). Jamie is weighing over
800 grams right now, and seems to be in the peak of health.
The other two are Pepper (your standard gray) and Rebekkah (black
velvet sapphire carrier). My problem is since I don't know the exact
breeding date I am not sure when to expect delivery. I have read about
the basic signs of pregnancy (weight gain, nipples becoming longer,
change in sleeping and/or eating habits), but is there any way to tell how
far along a female is if you don't know when she bred?
Not the exact due date. You can get a better idea the closer they get. If
you will put your females in your lap and give them a treat to help keep
them distracted, (it may take up to 20 minutes) you should be able to feel
the kits move if they are going to have one or two about 2 weeks before
delivery. Put one hand in your lap, palms up. Place them on the palm of
your hand ... finger tips near their tail. Just let the weight of the chin
create the pressure on the tummy ... do not push or poke around ... you
could kill the kit/kits. Unless the kits have already been moving before
this, the first time you feel them move, it should be about 2 weeks till
delivery. If they are going to have 3 or more ... it could be about 3 weeks
before the delivery.
I have read that the nipples will be very hard to find in the first 90 days.
Is that true?
Only for new ... first-time moms. If this is not their first litter, you really
can't count on that.
If that's the case then all three of my girls are due in the next few weeks.
Most females will increase their water intake by 50 to 100% the last 24
hours before they deliver ... watch your water levels in the bottles.
Jamie has become quite moody and defensive over the last two days,
which is just how she was prior to having Ashe. I am hoping she will
have a girl so I can leave them caged together.
Please do not sell her kits to anyone until they are at least 6 months old
or older.
I have a violet wrap girl coming here on Aug 5 that I am going to pair with
Sammie (violet), so I am going to take Jamie out of breeding for about a
year, which will be long enough to give her a good break and to make
sure her kit is ok.
Thanks. She was always one of my favorite girls. I don't want anything
to happen to her. I GAVE her to you not to put her in breeding, then
bought Ashe from you and he died. I just do not want to see her go
through anything unnecessarily.
I am very excited, but very nervous for my girls too. For two of them this
is a first litter, and Jamie was kind of a surprise. She and Sammie sure
didn't waste any time. Anyway, I am planning to post pics of the kits on
my website once they are a few days old.
I will let you know how everything goes! Thanks for your help! Say hi to
Bill for me!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
REPEAT:----- Original Message -----
From: "Abigail Sutton" <abigailsutton@npsva.com>
To: "Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins" <joannfryeb2@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Ashe
Jo Ann,
We had talked originally about not breeding her, but then after she did so
well with Ashe I had said I was considering it, after a break.
She has gained all of her weight back and is in great physical condition.
The male I tried to pair her with is a young, inexperienced breeder
though, so maybe that's the problem. I understand that you would not
have given her to me though if you had known she was ok to breed, so if
you would like to have her back I totally understand. Just let me know.
Thanks!
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abby Sutton
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:25 PM
Subject: Jamie
Abby,
When I got Ashe, the last weekend in March. I asked you again to give
Jamie at least 6 months to a year before putting her back into breeding
... you promised me you would wait. She got pregnant around April 19th
with the kit she just delivered ... the first in-season after Ashe was
weaned ... less than a month after I got Ashe. 4/20 to 8/09 is 111 days
You offered to give her back to me May 31st ... had I known what you had
done, I would have said yes at that time. Now, I will take you up on that.
I want Jamie back as soon as the kit is weaned.
I GAVE Jamie to you and she was already pregnant with Ashe. You made
me pay to get my own kit back. Then you put her into breeding after I
told you it would be dangerous for her to be put back into breeding that
quickly. She had two still births back to back then delivered a breed
back. She was pregnant for a solid year, then you put her back into
breeding as soon as Ashe was weaned. I think it best she comes home to
me.
Sincerely,
Jo Ann
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Abby,
Please check below. I have answered questions and made comments in
a different color.
Sincerely,
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
I do remember the conversation, but I also remember telling you then and
on several occasions not to put her into breeding for at least 6 months to
a year, that she needed the time to get back to normal, inside as well as
out.
If I wasn't clear I am sorry.
No you were not clear at all.
I had come away from that conversation believing I had your approval.
Maybe it was naive of me to think she could recuperate so quickly, but
that is what I thought.
I may be wrong, but, have trouble believing you were that naive,
especially after I was so strong about the fact that it would have to be 6
months to a year and explaining to you why.
Also, we did have a conversation in late April about her being with
Sammie. I had tried them together in an intro (after she had been cleared
by Dr. Carr at Stahl Exotics) and Sammie began to lose weight and fur, so
I separated them. Then after he had recovered I tried them together
again, and she again beat up on him. That's when I emailed you. The
first time we talked about this was over the phone, which is maybe why
you don't remember, but I did mention it to you. Again, maybe I didn't
communicate adequately and so you weren't clear on what I was saying.
If that is the case, again I am sorry.
If that is the case, I sure do not remember it and I know, under the
circumstances, I would have told you again not to put her into breeding,
she needed the re-coop time to get over what she had been through. Yet,
you put them back together a second time. One month would have not
been enough time for her to get back to normal ... why would I have
changed my mind on what I had been telling your for 2 months?
But I NEVER lied to you or tried to mislead you. After they were together
in May and you expressed concern about it I did separate them and they
had been together for about three days.
Think about what you just stated ... why would I tell you in March and
May not to put her in breeding and tell you in April it was OK? That does
not make any sense.
I guess I never really even thought about the math, but now that I look at
the due date calendar, you are right and she would have had to conceive
during the first intro period; not something I expected.
And that's why you put them back together a second time, so she could
get pregnant.
Since I often don't know when the chins mate I don't pay much attention
to the calendar because I really would have no idea when they would be
due anyway. I rely on the physical signs they give. If this is a mistake
then I will try to do better.
With the small number of chins you have, you should write down every
time you put a male and female in the same cage and/or if you even let
them play together. This tells you who the daddy is and very often gives
you a good idea when they are due.
I will be keeping Jamie out of breeding for a year, if for no other reason
than to make sure her current kit is healthy.
By this, are you saying you refuse to give her back to me?
I take the ethics of breeding very seriously and feel a responsibility to be
sure I am breeding genetically sound chins. I don't want to unknowingly
perpetuate undesirable genetic or physical traits.
Don't you think putting her into breeding again, after what she had
already been through (pregnancy and developing kits for over a solid
year ... 3 litters in a row) was the wrong thing to do? Her reserve of
calcium was way down from the pregnancies and nursing Ashe.
Wouldn't she need enough calcium to develop this kit and nurse it? Why
she hasn't gone hypocalcemia on you I do not know.
For the record, I did start Rebekkah's antibiotics immediately. I was
seeking some reasurance from more experienced breeders that this was
not going to be harmful, since I know antibiotics can upset a chin's
system, and I wanted to make sure I was doing everything I could to help
her.
Some antibiotics can be to strong for an unborn kit, or even for a nursing
kit ... but at this point, the mother's health should be the most important
thing. She has one dead kit in her, what if she does deliver this other
one, but can't nurse it because she has so much poison in her system,
what then? What if she dies?
I have recently switched to a vet closer to home, but have not been with
her long enough to have developed the same kind of blind trust I had with
Dr. Carr. I have found that some of the tips experienced breeders have
given me are things that this vet (and even Dr. Carr at Stahl's office) has
not been aware of, like waiting to give dust baths for 10 days after
delivery. In the wild, as far as I and the vet know, new mothers would not
avoid bathing for time periods, but would be participating in those normal
activities. So she knew of no reason why this would be harmful.
Since you have brought up "in the wild" ... In the wild they only had one
litter of kits a year. Do they know that?
In the wild they did not get containers of powdery volcanic ash to bathe
in, either ... it was dirt and very little of it. No one knows what
chinchillas did the first 10 days after birth ... I can not see why a vet
would even want to take the chance of a dust bath before a wound is
healed ... having a kit is like having an open wound.
However, since other breeders have had a problem with it I am going to
observe this waiting period so as not to take any unnecessary risks.
As for the advice you gave me on Rebekkah, I do respect your opinion
and value your advice, but once I consulted with my vet (firts thing the
following morning) and she assured me that things were ok and I was
being overly nervous, I felt comfortable with keeping an eye on Rebekkah
and letting nature take its course. I am not one to assume that I know
better than millions of years of evolutionary development.
I've never said that I know better than millions of years of evolutionary
development either ... but, chinchillas are exotic animals ... we have
taken them out of their natural healthy habitat. The advice I gave you
was from my own experience and the experience of breeders that have
been breeding for over 10 to 50 years.
I believe that there are good reasons for most things that occur naturally
and I should not interfere with that as much as possible. That is not to
say at all that I would allow a chin, or any animal, to suffer if it were ill or
in pain. Just that before doing invasive medical procedures I am going to
give the animal the chance to resolve things naturally since that would
be less traumatic and probably healthier.
A chinchilla mom is pregnant, goes into labor, even passes some blood
and you and the licensed exotic pet vet do not think that is a natural sign
of a mother trying to deliver her kits, but can't and is in trouble??? Being
this way for 10 days is natural and not traumatic? Trying to give birth,
the kit dieing inside of her and still having a possible live kit yet to be
delivered is less traumatic and healthier than having help with the
delivery from a vet? I am not a vet, yet I knew she needed an ultrasound
and/or at least an x-ray to know what was going on.
I am sorry if you disagree with my approach and I am sorry if we have had
misunderstandings, but I am not ok with being accused of lieing to you.
When you insist they were together only the ONE time and ONLY FOR 3
DAYS THAT ONE TIME and then have to admit otherwise when I call you
on it ... was that telling me the truth?
I have never intentionally misled you, nor do I do this with other people. I
pride myself on being honest and trustworthy. And if you are that worried
you are free to come visit my house to see how conscientious I am with
my chins. I have nothing to hide, I am not neglecting or mistreating my
animals in any way. Jamie is in great health. She looks beautiful and
behaves like a vibrant healthy happy chin. She eats well and plays
regularly. I have done my best to care for her to the utmost of my ability.
I am sorry if my best is not satisfactory to you, but that is all I can do.
If that is your best, then by my standards, it is not satisfactory to me.
I am inexperienced, and maybe I have made some mistakes, but they
have been HONEST mistakes and I do not appreciate the accusatory tone
you have taken with me. If you were upset with me I would have been
happy to hear you out without you jumping down my throat. If you were
anyone else I would not even have bothered to respond to this, as I don't
feel obligated to explain the decisions that I make with my animals.
With any animal you have purchased you make your own decisions ... but,
when you are given an animal, with the express provision that you will
not breed it ... and you do anyway, then it is my right be able to say
something.
As far as your decisions about Rebekkah. You ask for my advice, I gave
it, you chose to ignore it, now you have at least one dead kit on your
hands and possibly more. That is your problem, not mine. All I said was
that I wanted to make sure Jamie would never be put in the same
position.
However, I value my relationship with you, both as an experienced
breeder and as a friend, and would like very much to get this resolved. I
don't want you to have hard feelings or feel betrayed by me, as I have
never intentionally done anything to make you feel that way. If I have
made "rookie mistakes" I can accept responsibility for that and try to
learn for the future.
Yes, you have made "rookie mistakes", those I can understand ... and
even accept.
But, I do not feel putting Jamie in a breeding situation two different times
was a rookie mistake.
So you know, I have been thinking about what you said about having to
buy Ashe and I think you are right. I didn't really think about it at the
time, but he was bred by you with your chins and I shouldn't have asked
money for him.
You put Ashe up for sale on your site for $200 and when I saw it and
wanted him you lost out on the $200 sale, but wanted $100 from me ...
that shows me you realized it was my chin. Then, and I may be wrong,
but in my mind you put Jamie right back into a breeding situation, twice
... to make up the difference. To me, that seems like money is more
important to you than my Jamie's health.
When we spoke you had asked how much I wanted and I was caught off
guard. I am sorry for that, I should have been more thoughtful about it,
and I would be happy to refund your money, as it shouldn't have been
paid in the first place.
Let's see what is wrong with this offer at this time ... you adopt
chinchillas with me, each with the guarantee I will replace or refund any
chin that might have an inborn/hereditary problem within the first year. I
pay you the $100 you ask for Ash, then I have Ashe here less than a week
and he dies. Did you offer to refund the money at that time? No. It is
not the $100 that bothered me, it was the idea of the whole thing. If you
had purchased her, that would be different. If you had not promised not
to breed her, that would be different. But that was not the case.
Also, my offer still stands for your pick of my first violet wrap kit, as I
know that is one of the few colors you don't have yet, and I would like for
you to have one to show my appreciation for your help.
Thank-you, but I'd rather just have my Jamie back.
I hope this letter helps clear some things up and we can not be angry
with each other or have hard feelings.
When I loose trust, it takes a while to get it back ... I need some time to
think things out.
Sincerely,
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Jo Ann,
Are you angry with me? I am sorry if I did something to make you angry.
Jamie seemed veyr healthy and was cleared by a vet for breeding, so I
put her in with a violet. Then after I talked to you about it (about three
days later) I removed her from the cage and placed her by herself. She
had apparently already bred by that point. However, she is very healthy
(I just had her at the vet yesterday and she given a clean bill) and her kit
has also been given a clean bill of health. Furthermore, I already told you
I would be keeping her out of breeding for at least a year now to make
sure her kit is healthy. I am sorry if you felt buying Ashe was unfair. I did
not realize that at the time. When I spoke to you originally about him I
had meant to give him to you, but you said something about how much I
would want for him. So I assumed you expected him to be sold. If I made
the wrong assumption I am sorry. However, I have also told you that
because of that I have already decided to set aside my first violet wrap
kit for you at no cost. If you are still upset with me and feel what I am
doing is a problem I will hold to my word and return Jamie to you.
However, I do resent the implication that I have not taken good care of
her as she is every bit as healthy as she was when she came here. I do
my best to take excellent care of all of my chins and have done
extensive research of my own to learn how to care for pregnant chins,
nursing chins, growing chins, and all manner of illnesses. In addition, I
do seek the advice of a licensed exotic pet specialist in any situation I
am not 100% sure about. I am sorry if you don't feel I have done the right
things, or that I have done you wrong in some way, as that has never
been my intention.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Jamie
Abby,
You promised me to keep her out of breeding for 6 months to a year.
Then you broke your promise. I am not use to being lied to or having
promises broken. If you had come to me before you put her in breeding
and said you thought she was OK to be in breeding and/or a vet had said
she was OK for breeding, I would have still disagreed and ask you not to
and if you intended to put her in breeding I would want her back. But you
didn't ... I had to find it out on the web site. I told you she had two still
born litters back to back and then a breed-back ... that is almost a solid
year of being pregnant ... nurse a kit for 6 weeks ... then put her back
into breeding? Any vet that knew all the information would not say she
was ok to be put into breeding. That's like having a puppy mill but only
with chinchillas. Would you like to stay pregnant for 3 solid years and
give birth 4 times during that 3 years? In comparison to what you did
intentionally putting her back into breeding that is what you did to her.
At least the 2nd and 3rd pregnancy were accidents when she was with
me, I didn't know she was pregnant. All I can say is the good Lord was
looking out for Jamie because by all rights most chins would not survive
that.
Jamie got pregnant about April 19th or 20th ... I did not talk to you about
seeing on your web site that you had put her in breeding until May 25th
and you say you moved her after you talked to me? That's not 3 days,
Abby.
You say you seek advice from a licensed vet when you are not 100%
sure? Yet, a licensed vet gave you antibiotics for the black velvet and
instead of starting them immediately, you ask on an open forum for
advice from people that are not vets as to should you give it to her or not?
You called me on the phone August 7th wanting to know what to do about
the black velvet, I told you, you ignored the advice and now she has lost
at least one kit, maybe more. I don't want to take the chance you would
put Jamie through that, ever.
You say you told me you intend on keeping her out of breeding for a year
now? Isn't that what you promised me before? Wouldn't you, if you were
in my place, feel angry, betrayed, and/or lied to?
When you trust someone enough to give them one of your favorite chins,
then you find out your trust in their word can not be kept, it just kinda
does something bad to your insides. Maybe trust and your word does not
mean that much to you, but it does to me.
Jo Ann
Hi Abby,
I see you have Jamie's son "on hold"/spoken for ... is he already sold?
The sapphire that belongs to Rebekkah, how much would she be?
Jo Ann
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
Jamie's kit is already spoken for, assuming he gets to one year old
without incident. The sapphire girl is $250. I have attached two pics of
Jamie for you. As you can see, except for the fur on her nose, which she
keeps messing up by shoving her nose through the bars of her cage, she
is very well. She has received a clean bill of health from the vet and
is/has been getting calcium supplements and vitamin C every day. She
is very happy and active and is eating VERY well. Her kit is a handful,
just like her :)
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Abby,
Thank-you for the pictures of Jamie. I appreciate them. Will her kit be
weaned by the end of September so I can pic-up Jamie?
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I have not yet decided whether I feel it is appropriate to give Jamie
back. She was given to me as a gift, and to my mind demanding her
back is tantamount to "indian giving". I am not ok with your accusations
or your demands. Jamie has been in my care for quite some time now
and has been doing very well. I am sorry if you diasagree with the
decisions I have made in the care of my animals, but I am tired of trying
to justify myself to you. I am sorry that you think
I do not have their best interests and health as a priority. However, I
have grown attached to Jamie, my family has grown attached to her. I
consider her my pet and I am not sure that it is even appropriate for you
to demand her back. If this means that you no longer want to associate
with me or you think badly of me then so be it.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
Abby,
Jamie was given to you as a pet only, not to be put into breeding, that
was the only stipulation in which I gave her to you. You broke the
agreement. If she was going to be kept in breeding I would have kept
her. She was given to you in friendship, but friends don't go behind your
back and put something they care a great deal for in danger.
I think you need to reconsider and return Jamie to me.
Jo Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I am sorry you feel I went behind your back. I truly am. However, I stand
behind the decisions I made with my chins, and I am going to stand by my
decision to keep Jamie in my household. Both I and my family have
grown very attached to her, and I will not put them through the pain of
losing a pet because you disagree with a decision I made in good
conscience.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
To: Abigail Sutton
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Abby,
The only two things I ask of you when I GAVE Jamie to you was that you
take good care of her and that you would not put her into breeding, yet,
you do not feel that was wrong? In other words, you do not feel you
betrayed our friendship by putting her into breeding after you had
promised me you would not?
As a breeder, you feel that it is OK to keep a female pregnant for a year,
let her nurse the third litter, then knowingly put her back into breeding
for a 4th time in less than a month after the third litter is weaned? And
that's not bad breeding practices???
Did all the times that I helped you when you started out mean nothing?
You called me friend, then you do this? I do not understand you. Is it the
money you can make off of Jamie's kits? Do you want me to buy back
what I gave you? If that's it, for Jamie's sake I will buy her back.
Does your word not mean anything to you? I don't understand, Abby.
Why are you doing this to me? More important, why did you do what you
did to Jamie?
Jo Ann
There are no "dumb" questions ...
Only regrets they were not asked ...
From: Abigail Sutton
To: Jo Ann ~ Luv 'N Chins
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Kits
Jo Ann,
I have tried to explain myself to you. I am not doing anything to you
except choosing not to accede to your, in my view, inappropriate
demands. I do not feel as if I put Jamie in danger, since a licensed
exotic pet veterinarian, knowing Jamie's full history as it was told to me,
approved her for breeding. I am tired of your accusations that I only care
about the money. For the record I have lost far more in the way of money
than I have gained or will gain. I just spent more than one thousand
dollars trying to save Rebekkah and her two kits, not to mention the
sleep loss, stress, worry, and time away from work. I am sorry that you
feel I am not dedicated. I do appreciate the help and advice you have
given me, but to be frank I would rather find a friend and mentor who isn't
quite so judgemental and exacting. I made a judgement call, based on
the advice and input of a professional licensed veterinarian with
extensive experience dealing with chinchillas, as well as my own
research on others' breeding practices. I have researched the larger
ranch breeders and spoken with several breeders, like Dave Woods, to
get their input on ethical breeding practices, as well as reading all of the
recommended texts for breeders. I have done everything I can to
educate myself on the health issues and the ethical questions involved in
breeding. As I said before, I consider Jamie my pet and care for her a
great deal, as do the other people in my houehold. I do not believe it is
even appropriate for you to ask for her back, let alone demand her back
the way you have.
The fact that you are willing to call me a liar and a cheat, and accuse me
of essentially animal abuse leads me to feel that I no longer wish to have
dealings with you. I would prefer you not email me for a while. I need
time to cool off.
Abby
Respectfully,
Abigail S. Wilson
Vice President, Operations
National Protective Services, Inc.
I just wanna go back home to Momma Jo at Luv 'N Chins,
then I could be happy again ...
I do not want to have to have any more kits.
3 of my 4 kits have already died!
Jamie
| Your name or e-mail address will NOT be seen by anyone but me & will NOT be used for any reason. Thanks! Sincerely, Jo Ann |
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